Only one EV charger at home?!...

[Jasen Betts]

On 2023-06-06, NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:

\"Commander Kinsey\" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in message
newsp.153lw4nemvhs6z@ryzen.home...
On Thu, 20 Apr 2023 23:56:02 +0100, SteveW <steve@walker-family.me.uk
wrote:
That\'s normal for most cars, using vacuum servos to assist the existing
brake master cylinder. Citroens are different (they seem to like to be
weird), using a hydraulic pump to power the brakes (it also powers the
power steering and the rising and falling suspension), with a small
accumulator. Once that accumulator is emptied, not only is there no
assistance, but there are no brakes at all.

I\'m surprised that failure of the hydraulic pump would give no brakes at
all, because that would be a serious safety issue.

You would be suprised because that\'s not what happens. because the suspension
is on the same circuit you have the pressure in the suspension rams available
to operate the brakes if the pump is not running.

> Is the pump driven by gears or by belt?

Mostly where I\'ve looked it was bolted to the end of cam shaft, sticking out over the
transmission. (but on the GS it was a single piston pump driven by a cam on the front
end of the crank-shaft, the GS didn\'t have the engine tranverses, but also didn\'t
have power steering so only small pump was needed)

Belts can break... I\'ve had the power steering fail on my
car when the \"fan belt\" broke. This drives the alternator and the PS pump.
The steering just became very heavy, but the car was still drivable - at
least as far as the nearest place where I could safely stop and wait for the
RAC.

Only a fool is going to going try to limp home in a Citroen with no hydraulic,
there\'s enough energy stored in the suspension rams and accumulators to stop a
few times and then you\'re out. So, if it busts you call a tilt-tray
truck or someone with a vehicle trailer.

If the brakes had also been affected, it would have been a different
matter: the handbrake is bugger-all use at slowing a car down, especially if
you are trying to steer with one hand while pulling with all your strength
on the handbrake lever with the other hand.

--
Jasen.
🇺🇦 Слава Україні

 

[Peeler]

On Tue, 6 Jun 2023 10:05:53 +0100, NY, the really endlessly blathering,
notorious, troll-feeding, senile asshole, blathered, yet again:


> I\'m surprised that failure

I\'m not surprised that you troll-feeding senile swine happily come toddering
along to feed that PROVEN clinically insane wanker and attention whore , yet
again, you abnormal senile bullshit artist!

 

[Peeler]

On Tue, 6 Jun 2023 06:56:54 -0400, me, another mentally challenged
troll-feeding senile shithead, blathered:


> The money you might save on gas you\'ll spend replacing the starter motor.

Good grief! Will this idiotic thread never come to an end? That thread is
how old? Some two months? And why are you useless troll-feeding senile
SHITHEADS doing that attention-starved wanker the favour? Oh, yeah, because
you ARE useless troll-feeding senile SHITHEADS!

 

[Bob F]

On 6/6/2023 1:59 AM, NY wrote:

\"Commander Kinsey\" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in message
newsp.153ltwommvhs6z@ryzen.home...

Start stop is pointless, it saves fuck all petrol to turn the engine
off for a minute.

I think the energy saving (or lack of it!) is not the only reason for
using start/stop. It also saves cars sitting in queues of traffic (eg at
lights) with their engines giving out exhaust fumes while the engine is
idling. So it\'s partly an anti-pollution thing.

I wonder how long the engine has to be turned off and then restarted,
for it to produce less exhaust  / use less fuel than leaving the engine
idling. Bearing in mind the energy used by the battery to restart the
engine, and the fuel needed to replace this energy in the battery.

Watch your average mpg reading while idling at a light shortly after a
refill/reset. Turning off the engine at longer stops clearly makes a
difference.

 

[Bob F]

On 6/6/2023 4:31 AM, devnull wrote:

On 6/6/2023 7:22 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 06/06/2023 11:56, me wrote:
On 6/5/2023 11:40 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:


Start stop is pointless, it saves fuck all petrol to turn the engine
off for a minute.

The money you might save on gas you\'ll spend replacing the starter
motor.
As usual  kinsey is exactly wrong, as are you


The more you use the starter, the sooner it will wear out.

When you replace it, be sure to get one with a lifetime warranty.

 

[John Larkin]

On Tue, 6 Jun 2023 09:59:56 +0100, \"NY\" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:

\"Commander Kinsey\" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in message
newsp.153ltwommvhs6z@ryzen.home...

Start stop is pointless, it saves fuck all petrol to turn the engine off
for a minute.

I think the energy saving (or lack of it!) is not the only reason for using
start/stop. It also saves cars sitting in queues of traffic (eg at lights)
with their engines giving out exhaust fumes while the engine is idling. So
it\'s partly an anti-pollution thing.

I wonder how long the engine has to be turned off and then restarted, for it
to produce less exhaust / use less fuel than leaving the engine idling.
Bearing in mind the energy used by the battery to restart the engine, and
the fuel needed to replace this energy in the battery.

The catalytic converter will cool off.

 

[John Larkin]

On Tue, 6 Jun 2023 07:31:13 -0400, devnull <devnull@alt.home.repair>
wrote:

On 6/6/2023 7:22 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 06/06/2023 11:56, me wrote:
On 6/5/2023 11:40 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:


Start stop is pointless, it saves fuck all petrol to turn the engine
off for a minute.

The money you might save on gas you\'ll spend replacing the starter motor.
As usual  kinsey is exactly wrong, as are you


The more you use the starter, the sooner it will wear out.

The only motor in a Tesla is an electric motor.

 

[SteveW]

On 06/06/2023 10:05, NY wrote:

\"Commander Kinsey\" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in message
newsp.153lw4nemvhs6z@ryzen.home...
On Thu, 20 Apr 2023 23:56:02 +0100, SteveW <steve@walker-family.me.uk
wrote:
That\'s normal for most cars, using vacuum servos to assist the existing
brake master cylinder. Citroens are different (they seem to like to be
weird), using a hydraulic pump to power the brakes (it also powers the
power steering and the rising and falling suspension), with a small
accumulator. Once that accumulator is emptied, not only is there no
assistance, but there are no brakes at all.

I\'m surprised that failure of the hydraulic pump would give no brakes at
all, because that would be a serious safety issue. Is the pump driven by
gears or by belt? Belts can break...  I\'ve had the power steering fail
on my car when the \"fan belt\" broke. This drives the alternator and the
PS pump. The steering just became very heavy, but the car was still
drivable - at least as far as the nearest place where I could safely
stop and wait for the RAC. If the brakes had also been affected, it
would have been a different matter: the handbrake is bugger-all use at
slowing a car down, especially if you are trying to steer with one hand
while pulling with all your strength on the handbrake lever with the
other hand.

Yes, no brakes at all after the accumulator emptied, they are power
brakes, not power-assisted brakes. The accumulator is part of the
suspension and the brakes are powered from the suspension. From a
description of the operation of the system, \"If there was ever a
catastrophic loss of pressure in the vehicle, for example a failure of
the pump, there would be adequate pressure in the suspension to power
the brakes enough to bring the car to a stop.\" When my father\'s car
suffered engine failure, I had to tow him to a garage using a rigid bar,
so that I could do all the braking.

Power steering failure can also be a problem. A friend had a company car
with a dodgy electrical connection. As he went around a roundabout, the
engine cut out and the sudden change in necessary steering effort, with
no warning, caused him to hit the kerb, damaging the tyre, wheel and
suspension.

 

[SteveW]

On 06/06/2023 10:25, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 06/06/2023 10:05, NY wrote:
\"Commander Kinsey\" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in message
newsp.153lw4nemvhs6z@ryzen.home...
On Thu, 20 Apr 2023 23:56:02 +0100, SteveW
steve@walker-family.me.uk> wrote:
That\'s normal for most cars, using vacuum servos to assist the existing
brake master cylinder. Citroens are different (they seem to like to be
weird), using a hydraulic pump to power the brakes (it also powers the
power steering and the rising and falling suspension), with a small
accumulator. Once that accumulator is emptied, not only is there no
assistance, but there are no brakes at all.

I\'m surprised that failure of the hydraulic pump would give no brakes
at all, because that would be a serious safety issue. Is the pump
driven by gears or by belt? Belts can break...  I\'ve had the power
steering fail on my car when the \"fan belt\" broke. This drives the
alternator and the PS pump. The steering just became very heavy, but
the car was still drivable - at least as far as the nearest place
where I could safely stop and wait for the RAC. If the brakes had also
been affected, it would have been a different matter: the handbrake is
bugger-all use at slowing a car down, especially if you are trying to
steer with one hand while pulling with all your strength on the
handbrake lever with the other hand.

Normally both steering and brakes will be affected, but not to a
completely  non working extent, by loss of whatever power assistance
they normally enjoy.

Citroens were different. They did not use conventional brakes with power
assistance, but used power brakes, with no direct operation. From a
description of how they worked, \"essentially, the brake pedal is in fact
a valve which allows high-pressure hydraulic fluid into the callipers
and forces the pads against the disc\". So no stored hydraulic pressure =
no brakes.

 

[devnull]

On 6/6/2023 10:14 AM, John Larkin wrote:

On Tue, 6 Jun 2023 07:31:13 -0400, devnull <devnull@alt.home.repair
wrote:

On 6/6/2023 7:22 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 06/06/2023 11:56, me wrote:
On 6/5/2023 11:40 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:


Start stop is pointless, it saves fuck all petrol to turn the engine
off for a minute.

The money you might save on gas you\'ll spend replacing the starter motor.
As usual  kinsey is exactly wrong, as are you


The more you use the starter, the sooner it will wear out.

The only motor in a Tesla is an electric motor.

Starter motors have brushes that wear out. Does the Tesla motor have
brushes?

 

[SteveW]

On 06/06/2023 12:31, devnull wrote:

On 6/6/2023 7:22 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 06/06/2023 11:56, me wrote:
On 6/5/2023 11:40 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:


Start stop is pointless, it saves fuck all petrol to turn the engine
off for a minute.

The money you might save on gas you\'ll spend replacing the starter
motor.
As usual  kinsey is exactly wrong, as are you


The more you use the starter, the sooner it will wear out.

That depends upon the starter design. A couple of decades ago,
Volkswagen (IIRC), were developing a combined alternator/starter that
used the teeth of the flywheel and a toothed ring in the bell-housing.
Windings and electronics controlled the magnetic fields, so the two
toothed rings could act as either starter or alternator, with no
mechanical connection at all and therefore zero wear. I don\'t know if
any cars use similar systems.

 

[John Larkin]

On Tue, 6 Jun 2023 10:27:07 -0400, devnull <devnull@alt.home.repair>
wrote:

On 6/6/2023 10:14 AM, John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 6 Jun 2023 07:31:13 -0400, devnull <devnull@alt.home.repair
wrote:

On 6/6/2023 7:22 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 06/06/2023 11:56, me wrote:
On 6/5/2023 11:40 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:


Start stop is pointless, it saves fuck all petrol to turn the engine
off for a minute.

The money you might save on gas you\'ll spend replacing the starter motor.
As usual  kinsey is exactly wrong, as are you


The more you use the starter, the sooner it will wear out.

The only motor in a Tesla is an electric motor.


Starter motors have brushes that wear out. Does the Tesla motor have
brushes?

No.

I think start-stop gas engines use an induction (brushless)
starter/generator.

There are brushless starter motors too.

 

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 06/06/2023 13:12, Jasen Betts wrote:

On 2023-04-20, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Not arf as uneasy as power assisted brakes that lose power assistance.

I had a manual XJS once. The brakes were fed not by vacuum, but by an
electric pump.

I was just coasting to a halt in my drive when I switched the engine
off. The brakes vanished.

That\'s a symptom of a broken brake booster check valve.

No, its a symptom of electrically boosted brakes and power steering with
the ignition off.

There is no \'brake booster\' as such.


--
“People believe certain stories because everyone important tells them,
and people tell those stories because everyone important believes them.
Indeed, when a conventional wisdom is at its fullest strength, one’s
agreement with that conventional wisdom becomes almost a litmus test of
one’s suitability to be taken seriously.”

Paul Krugman

 

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 06/06/2023 15:27, devnull wrote:

On 6/6/2023 10:14 AM, John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 6 Jun 2023 07:31:13 -0400, devnull <devnull@alt.home.repair
wrote:

On 6/6/2023 7:22 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 06/06/2023 11:56, me wrote:
On 6/5/2023 11:40 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:


Start stop is pointless, it saves fuck all petrol to turn the engine
off for a minute.

The money you might save on gas you\'ll spend replacing the starter
motor.
As usual  kinsey is exactly wrong, as are you


The more you use the starter, the sooner it will wear out.

The only motor in a Tesla is an electric motor.


Starter motors have brushes that wear out. Does the Tesla motor have
brushes?

No.
Very few power motors today do.
--
“People believe certain stories because everyone important tells them,
and people tell those stories because everyone important believes them.
Indeed, when a conventional wisdom is at its fullest strength, one’s
agreement with that conventional wisdom becomes almost a litmus test of
one’s suitability to be taken seriously.”

Paul Krugman

 

[nib]

On Tue, 06 Jun 2023 15:17:24 +0100, SteveW wrote:

On 06/06/2023 10:05, NY wrote:
\"Commander Kinsey\" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in message
newsp.153lw4nemvhs6z@ryzen.home...
On Thu, 20 Apr 2023 23:56:02 +0100, SteveW <steve@walker-family.me.uk
wrote:
That\'s normal for most cars, using vacuum servos to assist the
existing brake master cylinder. Citroens are different (they seem to
like to be weird), using a hydraulic pump to power the brakes (it
also powers the power steering and the rising and falling
suspension), with a small accumulator. Once that accumulator is
emptied, not only is there no assistance, but there are no brakes at
all.

I\'m surprised that failure of the hydraulic pump would give no brakes
at all, because that would be a serious safety issue. Is the pump
driven by gears or by belt? Belts can break...  I\'ve had the power
steering fail on my car when the \"fan belt\" broke. This drives the
alternator and the PS pump. The steering just became very heavy, but
the car was still drivable - at least as far as the nearest place where
I could safely stop and wait for the RAC. If the brakes had also been
affected, it would have been a different matter: the handbrake is
bugger-all use at slowing a car down, especially if you are trying to
steer with one hand while pulling with all your strength on the
handbrake lever with the other hand.

Yes, no brakes at all after the accumulator emptied, they are power
brakes, not power-assisted brakes. The accumulator is part of the
suspension and the brakes are powered from the suspension. From a
description of the operation of the system, \"If there was ever a
catastrophic loss of pressure in the vehicle, for example a failure of
the pump, there would be adequate pressure in the suspension to power
the brakes enough to bring the car to a stop.\" When my father\'s car
suffered engine failure, I had to tow him to a garage using a rigid bar,
so that I could do all the braking.

....
I had a Citroen BX like that. As I remember there were three things that
partly compensated for the extra safety concerns:
1) A separate accumulator for the brake supply from the one for
suspension and steering;
2) A handbrake that worked on the front disks;
3) A huge red \"STOP\" sign in the dash that came on if the main hydraulic
pressure failed.

nib

 

[nib]

On Tue, 06 Jun 2023 10:19:55 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 06/06/2023 09:59, NY wrote:
\"Commander Kinsey\" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in message
newsp.153ltwommvhs6z@ryzen.home...

Start stop is pointless, it saves fuck all petrol to turn the engine
off for a minute.

I think the energy saving (or lack of it!) is not the only reason for
using start/stop. It also saves cars sitting in queues of traffic (eg
at lights) with their engines giving out exhaust fumes while the engine
is idling. So it\'s partly an anti-pollution thing.

I wonder how long the engine has to be turned off and then restarted,
for it to produce less exhaust  / use less fuel than leaving the engine
idling. Bearing in mind the energy used by the battery to restart the
engine, and the fuel needed to replace this energy in the battery.

Doesn\'t take a lot to start an engine. Less than a second at about 200A,
so 2.4kW seconds.

Or about 0.6 watt hours. Working on 10KWh per litre of fuel, very
roughly, that\'s around, 0.06cc of fuel equivalent to restart the car.

Sources suggest an idling car engine uses \'up to 2 litres per hour\' so
lets say an average of one litre per hour.

How long does it take to use 0.06cc? = 0.06 x 3.6 seconds. about 0.2
seconds.

Which suggests that given a decent warm fast starting engine it is
ALWAYS worth while cutting the engine when halted.

The downside is that it may not restart, or take time to do it. Not
having the engine running in a hybrid situation is what gives them great
fuel economy in urban situations, along with regenerative braking.

Makes them no better on a long run tho...

There\'s some theoretical benefit on a long run too. If the engine\'s
powerful enough for hills and acceleration it might not be working at
anything like full power when cruising, it might be better to run the
engine at its most efficient for bit, powering car and charging, then run
on electric only for a bit.

Our PHEV does that. Whether it helps much on mi/gal I haven\'t decided!

nib

 

[John Larkin]

On Tue, 6 Jun 2023 16:35:24 -0000 (UTC), nib
<news@ingram-bromley.co.uk> wrote:

On Tue, 06 Jun 2023 15:17:24 +0100, SteveW wrote:

On 06/06/2023 10:05, NY wrote:
\"Commander Kinsey\" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in message
newsp.153lw4nemvhs6z@ryzen.home...
On Thu, 20 Apr 2023 23:56:02 +0100, SteveW <steve@walker-family.me.uk
wrote:
That\'s normal for most cars, using vacuum servos to assist the
existing brake master cylinder. Citroens are different (they seem to
like to be weird), using a hydraulic pump to power the brakes (it
also powers the power steering and the rising and falling
suspension), with a small accumulator. Once that accumulator is
emptied, not only is there no assistance, but there are no brakes at
all.

I\'m surprised that failure of the hydraulic pump would give no brakes
at all, because that would be a serious safety issue. Is the pump
driven by gears or by belt? Belts can break...  I\'ve had the power
steering fail on my car when the \"fan belt\" broke. This drives the
alternator and the PS pump. The steering just became very heavy, but
the car was still drivable - at least as far as the nearest place where
I could safely stop and wait for the RAC. If the brakes had also been
affected, it would have been a different matter: the handbrake is
bugger-all use at slowing a car down, especially if you are trying to
steer with one hand while pulling with all your strength on the
handbrake lever with the other hand.

Yes, no brakes at all after the accumulator emptied, they are power
brakes, not power-assisted brakes. The accumulator is part of the
suspension and the brakes are powered from the suspension. From a
description of the operation of the system, \"If there was ever a
catastrophic loss of pressure in the vehicle, for example a failure of
the pump, there would be adequate pressure in the suspension to power
the brakes enough to bring the car to a stop.\" When my father\'s car
suffered engine failure, I had to tow him to a garage using a rigid bar,
so that I could do all the braking.
...
I had a Citroen BX like that. As I remember there were three things that
partly compensated for the extra safety concerns:
1) A separate accumulator for the brake supply from the one for
suspension and steering;
2) A handbrake that worked on the front disks;
3) A huge red \"STOP\" sign in the dash that came on if the main hydraulic
pressure failed.

nib

The French can cook and make wine but shouldn\'t be allowed to design
cars.

 

[Rod Speed]

On Tue, 06 Jun 2023 18:59:56 +1000, NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:

\"Commander Kinsey\" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in message
newsp.153ltwommvhs6z@ryzen.home...

Start stop is pointless, it saves fuck all petrol to turn the engine
off for a minute.

I think the energy saving (or lack of it!) is not the only reason for
using start/stop. It also saves cars sitting in queues of traffic (eg at
lights) with their engines giving out exhaust fumes while the engine is
idling. So it\'s partly an anti-pollution thing.

I wonder how long the engine has to be turned off and then restarted,
for it to produce less exhaust / use less fuel than leaving the engine
idling. Bearing in mind the energy used by the battery to restart the
engine, and the fuel needed to replace this energy in the battery.

The reality is that very little energy is used to restart the engine.

 

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 06/06/2023 17:38, nib wrote:

On Tue, 06 Jun 2023 10:19:55 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 06/06/2023 09:59, NY wrote:
\"Commander Kinsey\" <CK1@nospam.com> wrote in message
newsp.153ltwommvhs6z@ryzen.home...

Start stop is pointless, it saves fuck all petrol to turn the engine
off for a minute.

I think the energy saving (or lack of it!) is not the only reason for
using start/stop. It also saves cars sitting in queues of traffic (eg
at lights) with their engines giving out exhaust fumes while the engine
is idling. So it\'s partly an anti-pollution thing.

I wonder how long the engine has to be turned off and then restarted,
for it to produce less exhaust  / use less fuel than leaving the engine
idling. Bearing in mind the energy used by the battery to restart the
engine, and the fuel needed to replace this energy in the battery.

Doesn\'t take a lot to start an engine. Less than a second at about 200A,
so 2.4kW seconds.

Or about 0.6 watt hours. Working on 10KWh per litre of fuel, very
roughly, that\'s around, 0.06cc of fuel equivalent to restart the car.

Sources suggest an idling car engine uses \'up to 2 litres per hour\' so
lets say an average of one litre per hour.

How long does it take to use 0.06cc? = 0.06 x 3.6 seconds. about 0.2
seconds.

Which suggests that given a decent warm fast starting engine it is
ALWAYS worth while cutting the engine when halted.

The downside is that it may not restart, or take time to do it. Not
having the engine running in a hybrid situation is what gives them great
fuel economy in urban situations, along with regenerative braking.

Makes them no better on a long run tho...

There\'s some theoretical benefit on a long run too. If the engine\'s
powerful enough for hills and acceleration it might not be working at
anything like full power when cruising, it might be better to run the
engine at its most efficient for bit, powering car and charging, then run
on electric only for a bit.

Our PHEV does that. Whether it helps much on mi/gal I haven\'t decided!

nib

Most family cars are run at maximum efficiency for cruise anyway

The only benefit I can see is downhill braking

But that has to be offset against the extra complexity and hence lower
efficincy of the power train


--
“when things get difficult you just have to lie”

― Jean Claud Jüncker

 

[Peeler]

On Wed, 07 Jun 2023 02:44:37 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

<FLUSH the abnormal trolling senile cretin\'s latest trollshit unread>

--
Marland revealing the senile sociopath\'s pathology:
\"You have mentioned Alexa in a couple of threads recently, it is not a real
woman you know even if it is the only thing with a female name that stays
around while you talk to it.
Poor sad git who has to resort to Usenet and electronic devices for any
interaction as all real people run a mile to get away from you boring them
to death.\"
MID: <gfkt3mFe413U1@mid.individual.net>