New proof for black hole spin...

[Jan Panteltje]

New proof for black hole spin
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2023/09/230927154623.htm
Summary:
The supermassive black hole at the heart of galaxy M87, made famous by the first picture of a black hole shadow, has yielded another first: the jet shooting out from the black hole has been confirmed to wobble, providing direct proof that the black hole is spinning.

 

[Martin Brown]

On 04/10/2023 05:55, Jan Panteltje wrote:

New proof for black hole spin
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2023/09/230927154623.htm
Summary: The supermassive black hole at the heart of galaxy M87, made
famous by the first picture of a black hole shadow, has yielded
another first: the jet shooting out from the black hole has been
confirmed to wobble, providing direct proof that the black hole is
spinning.

Given how compact a BH actually is it would require very remarkable
initial conditions for one to form without any spin. Being so compact
also means that it spins hellishly fast too with a Kerr metric BH.

Main practical difference is that matter has more and closer stable
circular orbits going round with the spin of the BH than against it. If
there is an accretion disk it will almost certainly be spinning the same
way as the BH - adding to its angular momentum.

Ordinary stars mostly spin on timescales of a few weeks (-ish they are
not solid bodies). White dwarves on timescales of minutes to hours.

https://www.sciencenews.org/article/fastest-spinning-white-dwarf-star-rotation-speed

And neutron stars are typically ms to seconds and to all intents and
purposes they really are solid bodies of nuclear matter. Much more solid
than our terrestrial puny electromagnetically bound \"solid\" matter.

They get spun up by stealing angular momentum off an unlucky partner in
a binary star system as the latter enters its red giant phase.

In the case of primordial BH they get their angular momentum by random
chance although the tendency to see Jupiter mass objects forming in
pairs in star forming regions might mean that BH also form in pairs
(although nobody knows why this should be or if it is true).

Recent surprise announcement about JuMBO\'s (aka Jupiter Massive in the
Orion Nebula (you have to admire scientists sense of humour).

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-66974738

--
Martin Brown

 

[John Larkin]

On Wed, 4 Oct 2023 08:31:36 +0100, Martin Brown
<\'\'\'newspam\'\'\'@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

On 04/10/2023 05:55, Jan Panteltje wrote:
New proof for black hole spin
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2023/09/230927154623.htm
Summary: The supermassive black hole at the heart of galaxy M87, made
famous by the first picture of a black hole shadow, has yielded
another first: the jet shooting out from the black hole has been
confirmed to wobble, providing direct proof that the black hole is
spinning.

Given how compact a BH actually is it would require very remarkable
initial conditions for one to form without any spin. Being so compact
also means that it spins hellishly fast too with a Kerr metric BH.

Main practical difference is that matter has more and closer stable
circular orbits going round with the spin of the BH than against it. If
there is an accretion disk it will almost certainly be spinning the same
way as the BH - adding to its angular momentum.

Ordinary stars mostly spin on timescales of a few weeks (-ish they are
not solid bodies). White dwarves on timescales of minutes to hours.

https://www.sciencenews.org/article/fastest-spinning-white-dwarf-star-rotation-speed

And neutron stars are typically ms to seconds and to all intents and
purposes they really are solid bodies of nuclear matter. Much more solid
than our terrestrial puny electromagnetically bound \"solid\" matter.

They get spun up by stealing angular momentum off an unlucky partner in
a binary star system as the latter enters its red giant phase.

In the case of primordial BH they get their angular momentum by random
chance although the tendency to see Jupiter mass objects forming in
pairs in star forming regions might mean that BH also form in pairs
(although nobody knows why this should be or if it is true).

Recent surprise announcement about JuMBO\'s (aka Jupiter Massive in the
Orion Nebula (you have to admire scientists sense of humour).

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-66974738

Does a BH spin exert a force on nearby objects?

 

[Martin Brown]

On 04/10/2023 11:48, John Larkin wrote:

On Wed, 4 Oct 2023 08:31:36 +0100, Martin Brown
\'\'\'newspam\'\'\'@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

On 04/10/2023 05:55, Jan Panteltje wrote:
New proof for black hole spin
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2023/09/230927154623.htm
Summary: The supermassive black hole at the heart of galaxy M87, made
famous by the first picture of a black hole shadow, has yielded
another first: the jet shooting out from the black hole has been
confirmed to wobble, providing direct proof that the black hole is
spinning.

Given how compact a BH actually is it would require very remarkable
initial conditions for one to form without any spin. Being so compact
also means that it spins hellishly fast too with a Kerr metric BH.

Main practical difference is that matter has more and closer stable
circular orbits going round with the spin of the BH than against it. If
there is an accretion disk it will almost certainly be spinning the same
way as the BH - adding to its angular momentum.

[snip]

> Does a BH spin exert a force on nearby objects?

In the classical interpretation yes, but in GR it is more effectively
described as frame dragging - the same GR relativistic effect that
causes the perihelion of Mercury to move due to our own sun\'s rotation.

It falls off pretty quickly as you move away from the object and becomes
a lot more extreme the faster the object is spinning and smaller it it.

The ones I can recall from memory are for last circular stable orbits.
Taking a classical Schwarzschild BH with effective radius Rs

The last stable circular orbits are at Schwarzchild metric 3Rs
(non-rotating)

And for the Kerr metric at Rs (with the spin) and 4.5Rs (against it)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Innermost_stable_circular_orbit

There a very strong magnetic field involved in both neutron stars (for
certain) and BH very probably. This is quite a nice article on recent
measurements of polarised X ray\'s from the Crab Nebula pulsar (one of
the canonical objects)

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-07390-7

I don\'t think its behind a paywall but if it is \"Crab with polarized
X-rays\" should get it as the first hit (and Google cache is free).

--
Martin Brown

 

[a a]

The arsehole Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> persisting in being an Off-topic troll...

--
Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> wrote:

Path: not-for-mail
From: Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: New proof for black hole spin
Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2023 04:55:34 GMT
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[a a]

The idiot Martin Brown <\'\'\'newspam\'\'\'@nonad.co.uk> persisting in being an Off-topic troll...

--
Martin Brown <\'\'\'newspam\'\'\'@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

Path: not-for-mail
From: Martin Brown <\'\'\'newspam\'\'\'@nonad.co.uk
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: New proof for black hole spin
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2023 08:31:36 +0100
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[a a]

The arsehole John Larkin <jl@997arbor.com> persisting in being an Off-topic troll...

--
John Larkin <jl@997arbor.com> wrote:

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Subject: Re: New proof for black hole spin
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[a a]

The idiot Martin Brown <\'\'\'newspam\'\'\'@nonad.co.uk> persisting in being an Off-topic troll...

--
Martin Brown <\'\'\'newspam\'\'\'@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

Path: not-for-mail
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Subject: Re: New proof for black hole spin
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[Anthony William Sloman]

On Thursday, October 5, 2023 at 2:19:19 AM UTC+11, a a wrote:
> The idiot Martin Brown <\'\'\'newspam\'\'\'@nonad.co.uk> persisting in being an Off-topic troll...

A a - who really is an anonymous off-topic troll - is silly enouhg to think he can get away with claiming that Martin Brown is an idiot, when he clearly is unusually clever.

A a isn\'t very bright at the best of times, but his reaction to being largely ignored and occasionally be-littled for his many stupidities seems to be to double down and post even more stupidities.

--
Bill Sloman Sydney

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Wed, 4 Oct 2023 08:31:36 +0100) it happened Martin Brown
<\'\'\'newspam\'\'\'@nonad.co.uk> wrote in <ufj4cq$28ob$1@dont-email.me>:

On 04/10/2023 05:55, Jan Panteltje wrote:
New proof for black hole spin
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2023/09/230927154623.htm
Summary: The supermassive black hole at the heart of galaxy M87, made
famous by the first picture of a black hole shadow, has yielded
another first: the jet shooting out from the black hole has been
confirmed to wobble, providing direct proof that the black hole is
spinning.

Given how compact a BH actually is it would require very remarkable
initial conditions for one to form without any spin. Being so compact
also means that it spins hellishly fast too with a Kerr metric BH.

Main practical difference is that matter has more and closer stable
circular orbits going round with the spin of the BH than against it. If
there is an accretion disk it will almost certainly be spinning the same
way as the BH - adding to its angular momentum.

Ordinary stars mostly spin on timescales of a few weeks (-ish they are
not solid bodies). White dwarves on timescales of minutes to hours.

https://www.sciencenews.org/article/fastest-spinning-white-dwarf-star-rotation-speed

And neutron stars are typically ms to seconds and to all intents and
purposes they really are solid bodies of nuclear matter. Much more solid
than our terrestrial puny electromagnetically bound \"solid\" matter.

They get spun up by stealing angular momentum off an unlucky partner in
a binary star system as the latter enters its red giant phase.

In the case of primordial BH they get their angular momentum by random
chance although the tendency to see Jupiter mass objects forming in
pairs in star forming regions might mean that BH also form in pairs
(although nobody knows why this should be or if it is true).

Recent surprise announcement about JuMBO\'s (aka Jupiter Massive in the
Orion Nebula (you have to admire scientists sense of humour).

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-66974738

Yes there is a lot coming from Webb, brighter galaxies than expected just after the big-bang formed,
now seem to fit into standard theory anyways...
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2023/10/231003104735.htm

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Wed, 4 Oct 2023 12:53:33 +0100) it happened Martin Brown
<\'\'\'newspam\'\'\'@nonad.co.uk> wrote in <ufjjnv$59kt$1@dont-email.me>:

On 04/10/2023 11:48, John Larkin wrote:
On Wed, 4 Oct 2023 08:31:36 +0100, Martin Brown
\'\'\'newspam\'\'\'@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

On 04/10/2023 05:55, Jan Panteltje wrote:
New proof for black hole spin
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2023/09/230927154623.htm
Summary: The supermassive black hole at the heart of galaxy M87, made
famous by the first picture of a black hole shadow, has yielded
another first: the jet shooting out from the black hole has been
confirmed to wobble, providing direct proof that the black hole is
spinning.

Given how compact a BH actually is it would require very remarkable
initial conditions for one to form without any spin. Being so compact
also means that it spins hellishly fast too with a Kerr metric BH.

Main practical difference is that matter has more and closer stable
circular orbits going round with the spin of the BH than against it. If
there is an accretion disk it will almost certainly be spinning the same
way as the BH - adding to its angular momentum.

[snip]

Does a BH spin exert a force on nearby objects?

In the classical interpretation yes, but in GR it is more effectively
described as frame dragging - the same GR relativistic effect that
causes the perihelion of Mercury to move due to our own sun\'s rotation.

It falls off pretty quickly as you move away from the object and becomes
a lot more extreme the faster the object is spinning and smaller it it.

The ones I can recall from memory are for last circular stable orbits.
Taking a classical Schwarzschild BH with effective radius Rs

The last stable circular orbits are at Schwarzchild metric 3Rs
(non-rotating)

And for the Kerr metric at Rs (with the spin) and 4.5Rs (against it)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Innermost_stable_circular_orbit

There a very strong magnetic field involved in both neutron stars (for
certain) and BH very probably. This is quite a nice article on recent
measurements of polarised X ray\'s from the Crab Nebula pulsar (one of
the canonical objects)

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-07390-7

I don\'t think its behind a paywall but if it is \"Crab with polarized
X-rays\" should get it as the first hit (and Google cache is free).

Frame dragging is also simple explained by Le Sage type particles.

 

[Anthony William Sloman]

On Thursday, October 5, 2023 at 4:52:00 PM UTC+11, Jan Panteltje wrote:

On a sunny day (Wed, 4 Oct 2023 12:53:33 +0100) it happened Martin Brown <\'\'\'newspam\'\'\'@nonad.co.uk> wrote in <ufjjnv$59kt$1...@dont-email.me>:
On 04/10/2023 11:48, John Larkin wrote:
On Wed, 4 Oct 2023 08:31:36 +0100, Martin Brown <\'\'\'newspam\'\'\'@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
On 04/10/2023 05:55, Jan Panteltje wrote:

<snip>

> Frame dragging is also simple explained by Le Sage type particles.

At the level of explanation that Jan Panteltje finds convincing.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Martin Brown]

On 05/10/2023 06:49, Jan Panteltje wrote:

On a sunny day (Wed, 4 Oct 2023 08:31:36 +0100) it happened Martin Brown
\'\'\'newspam\'\'\'@nonad.co.uk> wrote in <ufj4cq$28ob$1@dont-email.me>:

In the case of primordial BH they get their angular momentum by random
chance although the tendency to see Jupiter mass objects forming in
pairs in star forming regions might mean that BH also form in pairs
(although nobody knows why this should be or if it is true).

Recent surprise announcement about JuMBO\'s (aka Jupiter Massive in the
Orion Nebula (you have to admire scientists sense of humour).

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-66974738

Yes there is a lot coming from Webb, brighter galaxies than expected just after the big-bang formed,
now seem to fit into standard theory anyways...
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2023/10/231003104735.htm

It would be really cool if they could show that most stars (and other
compact objects) do form initially as bound binary pairs. Depending on
who you believe something like 5-10% of stars at present are in binary
(or higher multiplicity) systems (or 30% in our galaxy if you take the
most optimistic number).

Present solar system formation codes don\'t seem to show this effect, but
that could be because no-one is looking on the right scale (ie modelling
a star and its planets or lots of stars but never just a few suns).

Makes you wonder where is the twin to our own star now?
(if there is one)

Globular clusters are the most extreme bound multi-star systems known -
they gradually get every more tightly bound by expelling the odd star
after a 3 body encounter. M13 is the prettiest of them just under
Hercules right shoulder in the summer sky. Just naked eye visible and an
easy binocular object >8\" scope will show some stars. It is quite
stunning in a larger scope with dark skies diamond dust sparkling.

Globular cluster type agglomerations of stars condensing too tightly is
potentially one of the ways that supermassive black holes might form.

--
Martin Brown

 

[a a]

The idiot Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> persisting in being an Off-topic troll...

--
Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> wrote:

Path: not-for-mail
From: Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: New proof for black hole spin
Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2023 05:51:51 GMT
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[a a]

The idiot Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> persisting in being an Off-topic troll...

--
Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> wrote:

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Subject: Re: New proof for black hole spin
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[a a]

The idiot Martin Brown <\'\'\'newspam\'\'\'@nonad.co.uk> persisting in being an Off-topic troll...

--
Martin Brown <\'\'\'newspam\'\'\'@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

Path: not-for-mail
From: Martin Brown <\'\'\'newspam\'\'\'@nonad.co.uk
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: New proof for black hole spin
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2023 09:12:24 +0100
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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uflipe$qgj$1@solani.org
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[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Thu, 5 Oct 2023 09:12:24 +0100) it happened Martin Brown
<\'\'\'newspam\'\'\'@nonad.co.uk> wrote in <uflr59$rfbl$1@dont-email.me>:

On 05/10/2023 06:49, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Wed, 4 Oct 2023 08:31:36 +0100) it happened Martin Brown
\'\'\'newspam\'\'\'@nonad.co.uk> wrote in <ufj4cq$28ob$1@dont-email.me>:

In the case of primordial BH they get their angular momentum by random
chance although the tendency to see Jupiter mass objects forming in
pairs in star forming regions might mean that BH also form in pairs
(although nobody knows why this should be or if it is true).

Recent surprise announcement about JuMBO\'s (aka Jupiter Massive in the
Orion Nebula (you have to admire scientists sense of humour).

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-66974738

Yes there is a lot coming from Webb, brighter galaxies than expected just after the big-bang formed,
now seem to fit into standard theory anyways...
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2023/10/231003104735.htm

It would be really cool if they could show that most stars (and other
compact objects) do form initially as bound binary pairs. Depending on
who you believe something like 5-10% of stars at present are in binary
(or higher multiplicity) systems (or 30% in our galaxy if you take the
most optimistic number).

Present solar system formation codes don\'t seem to show this effect, but
that could be because no-one is looking on the right scale (ie modelling
a star and its planets or lots of stars but never just a few suns).

Makes you wonder where is the twin to our own star now?
(if there is one)

Globular clusters are the most extreme bound multi-star systems known -
they gradually get every more tightly bound by expelling the odd star
after a 3 body encounter. M13 is the prettiest of them just under
Hercules right shoulder in the summer sky. Just naked eye visible and an
easy binocular object >8\" scope will show some stars. It is quite
stunning in a larger scope with dark skies diamond dust sparkling.

Globular cluster type agglomerations of stars condensing too tightly is
potentially one of the ways that supermassive black holes might form.

I had this strange idea that if indeed there was a big bang and something very dense
exploded, then maybe the \'black holes\' are just pieces of the initial big blob
and those black holes then later formed galaxies.
No proof, just an idea... maybe from watching fireworks...

 

[a a]

The idiot Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> persisting in being an Off-topic troll...

--
Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> wrote:

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From: Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: New proof for black hole spin
Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2023 14:25:44 GMT
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[Anthony William Sloman]

On Friday, October 6, 2023 at 1:25:53 AM UTC+11, Jan Panteltje wrote:

On a sunny day (Thu, 5 Oct 2023 09:12:24 +0100) it happened Martin Brown
\'\'\'newspam\'\'\'@nonad.co.uk> wrote in <uflr59$rfbl$1...@dont-email.me>:
On 05/10/2023 06:49, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Wed, 4 Oct 2023 08:31:36 +0100) it happened Martin Brown
\'\'\'newspam\'\'\'@nonad.co.uk> wrote in <ufj4cq$28ob$1...@dont-email.me>:

In the case of primordial BH they get their angular momentum by random
chance although the tendency to see Jupiter mass objects forming in
pairs in star forming regions might mean that BH also form in pairs
(although nobody knows why this should be or if it is true).

Recent surprise announcement about JuMBO\'s (aka Jupiter Massive in the
Orion Nebula (you have to admire scientists sense of humour).

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-66974738

Yes there is a lot coming from Webb, brighter galaxies than expected just after the big-bang formed,
now seem to fit into standard theory anyways...
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2023/10/231003104735.htm

It would be really cool if they could show that most stars (and other
compact objects) do form initially as bound binary pairs. Depending on
who you believe something like 5-10% of stars at present are in binary
(or higher multiplicity) systems (or 30% in our galaxy if you take the
most optimistic number).

Present solar system formation codes don\'t seem to show this effect, but
that could be because no-one is looking on the right scale (ie modelling
a star and its planets or lots of stars but never just a few suns).

Makes you wonder where is the twin to our own star now?
(if there is one)

Globular clusters are the most extreme bound multi-star systems known -
they gradually get every more tightly bound by expelling the odd star
after a 3 body encounter. M13 is the prettiest of them just under
Hercules right shoulder in the summer sky. Just naked eye visible and an
easy binocular object >8\" scope will show some stars. It is quite
stunning in a larger scope with dark skies diamond dust sparkling.

Globular cluster type agglomerations of stars condensing too tightly is
potentially one of the ways that supermassive black holes might form.
I had this strange idea that if indeed there was a big bang and something very dense
exploded, then maybe the \'black holes\' are just pieces of the initial big blob
and those black holes then later formed galaxies.
No proof, just an idea... maybe from watching fireworks...

You\'d need to find an explanation that covered the fact that the cosmic microwave background radiation is as uniform as it is.

https://www.esa.int/Science_Exploration/Space_Science/Herschel/Cosmic_Microwave_Background_CMB_radiation

It dates from 300,000 years after the big bang but it does suggest that the universe was pretty homogeneous at that point

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_microwave_background

Not a lot of room for any black hole blobs.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney