E
Eddy Lee
Guest
I have microwave, fridge and 10 laptops on a 20A circuit. Fine most of the time until I use the microwave. Should I try a 22 Amp Interrupting Circuit breaker? Existing one might be 10AIC.
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F
Fred Bloggs
Guest
On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 3:28:37â¯PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote:
> I have microwave, fridge and 10 laptops on a 20A circuit. Fine most of the time until I use the microwave. Should I try a 22 Amp Interrupting Circuit breaker? Existing one might be 10AIC.
I think you mean 10KAIC, which is not directly related to trip current as much as breaker contact construction. Plug the smallest load, laptop (?), into a different less loaded circuit via extension cord. Or wire a new circuit, which doesn\'t have to be all the way to the panel, it can be a tap off an existing circuit in the proximity.
> I have microwave, fridge and 10 laptops on a 20A circuit. Fine most of the time until I use the microwave. Should I try a 22 Amp Interrupting Circuit breaker? Existing one might be 10AIC.
I think you mean 10KAIC, which is not directly related to trip current as much as breaker contact construction. Plug the smallest load, laptop (?), into a different less loaded circuit via extension cord. Or wire a new circuit, which doesn\'t have to be all the way to the panel, it can be a tap off an existing circuit in the proximity.
D
Don Y
Guest
On 9/24/2023 12:28 PM, Eddy Lee wrote:
> I have microwave, fridge and 10 laptops on a 20A circuit. Fine most of the time until I use the microwave. Should I try a 22 Amp Interrupting Circuit breaker? Existing one might be 10AIC.
You\'ve not indicated where you are located.
In the US, \"20A\" and \"microwave\" would suggest a kitchen, countertop circuit.
In which case, there is a *second* such circuit, nearby (if the installer had
2wired it SANELY, the next outlet -- 4 ft away -- would be on that circuit).
Or, if REALLY done well, the microwave wouldn\'t be on the counter circuit
at all and would have its own dedicated branch circuit.
OTOH, a \"22A\" circuit wouldn\'t exist, here.
> I have microwave, fridge and 10 laptops on a 20A circuit. Fine most of the time until I use the microwave. Should I try a 22 Amp Interrupting Circuit breaker? Existing one might be 10AIC.
You\'ve not indicated where you are located.
In the US, \"20A\" and \"microwave\" would suggest a kitchen, countertop circuit.
In which case, there is a *second* such circuit, nearby (if the installer had
2wired it SANELY, the next outlet -- 4 ft away -- would be on that circuit).
Or, if REALLY done well, the microwave wouldn\'t be on the counter circuit
at all and would have its own dedicated branch circuit.
OTOH, a \"22A\" circuit wouldn\'t exist, here.
D
Don Y
Guest
On 9/24/2023 2:56 PM, Don Y wrote:
It goes without saying that the fridge should always have a dedicated
(i.e., \"single outlet\") circuit.
On 9/24/2023 12:28 PM, Eddy Lee wrote:
I have microwave, fridge and 10 laptops on a 20A circuit. Fine most of the
time until I use the microwave. Should I try a 22 Amp Interrupting Circuit
breaker? Existing one might be 10AIC.
You\'ve not indicated where you are located.
In the US, \"20A\" and \"microwave\" would suggest a kitchen, countertop circuit.
In which case, there is a *second* such circuit, nearby (if the installer had
2wired it SANELY, the next outlet -- 4 ft away -- would be on that circuit).
Or, if REALLY done well, the microwave wouldn\'t be on the counter circuit
at all and would have its own dedicated branch circuit.
It goes without saying that the fridge should always have a dedicated
(i.e., \"single outlet\") circuit.
OTOH, a \"22A\" circuit wouldn\'t exist, here.
E
Eddy Lee
Guest
On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 2:56:51â¯PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
The have two version of 20A breaker, 10AIC and 22AIC. I guess I don\'t really know what they mean. It\'s plug-in microwave and fridge on the same circuit.
On 9/24/2023 12:28 PM, Eddy Lee wrote:
I have microwave, fridge and 10 laptops on a 20A circuit. Fine most of the time until I use the microwave. Should I try a 22 Amp Interrupting Circuit breaker? Existing one might be 10AIC.
You\'ve not indicated where you are located.
In the US, \"20A\" and \"microwave\" would suggest a kitchen, countertop circuit.
In which case, there is a *second* such circuit, nearby (if the installer had
2wired it SANELY, the next outlet -- 4 ft away -- would be on that circuit).
Or, if REALLY done well, the microwave wouldn\'t be on the counter circuit
at all and would have its own dedicated branch circuit.
OTOH, a \"22A\" circuit wouldn\'t exist, here.
The have two version of 20A breaker, 10AIC and 22AIC. I guess I don\'t really know what they mean. It\'s plug-in microwave and fridge on the same circuit.
L
Lasse Langwadt Christensen
Guest
mandag den 25. september 2023 kl. 00.24.38 UTC+2 skrev Eddy Lee:
AIC is Ampere Interrupting Capacity, so it is probably 10kAIC and 22kAIC.
On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 2:56:51â¯PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
On 9/24/2023 12:28 PM, Eddy Lee wrote:
I have microwave, fridge and 10 laptops on a 20A circuit. Fine most of the time until I use the microwave. Should I try a 22 Amp Interrupting Circuit breaker? Existing one might be 10AIC.
You\'ve not indicated where you are located.
In the US, \"20A\" and \"microwave\" would suggest a kitchen, countertop circuit.
In which case, there is a *second* such circuit, nearby (if the installer had
2wired it SANELY, the next outlet -- 4 ft away -- would be on that circuit).
Or, if REALLY done well, the microwave wouldn\'t be on the counter circuit
at all and would have its own dedicated branch circuit.
OTOH, a \"22A\" circuit wouldn\'t exist, here.
The have two version of 20A breaker, 10AIC and 22AIC. I guess I don\'t really know what they mean. It\'s plug-in microwave and fridge on the same circuit.
AIC is Ampere Interrupting Capacity, so it is probably 10kAIC and 22kAIC.
D
Don Y
Guest
On 9/24/2023 3:24 PM, Eddy Lee wrote:
The \"interrupting\" current rating indicates the INSTANTANEOUS current level
at which the breaker is determined not to fail, catastrophically.
Recall, these are electroMECHANICAL devices so there are finite reaction
times involved. During those times, a breaker may have to pass the full
short-circuit rating of the panel into it\'s shorted output. A breaker
failing while doing that is A Bad Thing.
So, you select breakers with higher interrupting current levels
than those of the panel as the panel isn\'t guaranteed to \"behave\"
at levels above its rating. 22kAIC is a common panel/load center
rating.
One typically wants the fridge on a separate circuit as it won\'t be a
\"victim\" of a short circuit caused by something else. You\'d be
annoyed if the toaster blew a breaker and your food spoiled...
(if the refrigerator is the sole device, then worrying about
food spoilage while the refrigerator is the culprit is sort of
implied)
Microwaves (on counter circuits) tend to cause problems because
they are used \"on demand\"... you don\'t think twice about pressing
the START button, regardless of what other appliances you may
have on that circuit. Nuisance trips then become a problem.
Putting it on its own circuit leaves plenty of headroom and
keeps other loads from eating into its resources.
[We have 5 or 6 circuits in our small kitchen -- not counting the
oven/stove. We *never* blow breakers, even with electric wok,
toaster, frying pans, microwave, dishwasher, disposal, etc. all
operating simultaneously. Kitchens are the energy hogs in most homes
so ensuring you have an adequate supply *there* is usually prudent]
You should also explore whether or not your branch circuit is GFCI
protected (common for countertops). And, if so, verify that every
connection is tight and secure -- esp if your outlets were wired
\"daisy chain\". A high-resistance connection can cause nuisance
trips (and outlets regularly see \"motion\" as plugs are inserted
and withdrawn -- esp if wired with back-stab terminals!)
On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 2:56:51â¯PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
On 9/24/2023 12:28 PM, Eddy Lee wrote:
I have microwave, fridge and 10 laptops on a 20A circuit. Fine most of the time until I use the microwave. Should I try a 22 Amp Interrupting Circuit breaker? Existing one might be 10AIC.
You\'ve not indicated where you are located.
In the US, \"20A\" and \"microwave\" would suggest a kitchen, countertop circuit.
In which case, there is a *second* such circuit, nearby (if the installer had
2wired it SANELY, the next outlet -- 4 ft away -- would be on that circuit).
Or, if REALLY done well, the microwave wouldn\'t be on the counter circuit
at all and would have its own dedicated branch circuit.
OTOH, a \"22A\" circuit wouldn\'t exist, here.
The have two version of 20A breaker, 10AIC and 22AIC. I guess I don\'t really know what they mean. It\'s plug-in microwave and fridge on the same circuit.
The \"interrupting\" current rating indicates the INSTANTANEOUS current level
at which the breaker is determined not to fail, catastrophically.
Recall, these are electroMECHANICAL devices so there are finite reaction
times involved. During those times, a breaker may have to pass the full
short-circuit rating of the panel into it\'s shorted output. A breaker
failing while doing that is A Bad Thing.
So, you select breakers with higher interrupting current levels
than those of the panel as the panel isn\'t guaranteed to \"behave\"
at levels above its rating. 22kAIC is a common panel/load center
rating.
One typically wants the fridge on a separate circuit as it won\'t be a
\"victim\" of a short circuit caused by something else. You\'d be
annoyed if the toaster blew a breaker and your food spoiled...
(if the refrigerator is the sole device, then worrying about
food spoilage while the refrigerator is the culprit is sort of
implied)
Microwaves (on counter circuits) tend to cause problems because
they are used \"on demand\"... you don\'t think twice about pressing
the START button, regardless of what other appliances you may
have on that circuit. Nuisance trips then become a problem.
Putting it on its own circuit leaves plenty of headroom and
keeps other loads from eating into its resources.
[We have 5 or 6 circuits in our small kitchen -- not counting the
oven/stove. We *never* blow breakers, even with electric wok,
toaster, frying pans, microwave, dishwasher, disposal, etc. all
operating simultaneously. Kitchens are the energy hogs in most homes
so ensuring you have an adequate supply *there* is usually prudent]
You should also explore whether or not your branch circuit is GFCI
protected (common for countertops). And, if so, verify that every
connection is tight and secure -- esp if your outlets were wired
\"daisy chain\". A high-resistance connection can cause nuisance
trips (and outlets regularly see \"motion\" as plugs are inserted
and withdrawn -- esp if wired with back-stab terminals!)
E
Eddy Lee
Guest
On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 3:59:51â¯PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
There are 4 breakers and 3 empty slots in the panel. I guess they really cut corners in this apartment. I might add some more breakers, but making holes for wires is the problem.
On 9/24/2023 3:24 PM, Eddy Lee wrote:
On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 2:56:51â¯PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
On 9/24/2023 12:28 PM, Eddy Lee wrote:
I have microwave, fridge and 10 laptops on a 20A circuit. Fine most of the time until I use the microwave. Should I try a 22 Amp Interrupting Circuit breaker? Existing one might be 10AIC.
You\'ve not indicated where you are located.
In the US, \"20A\" and \"microwave\" would suggest a kitchen, countertop circuit.
In which case, there is a *second* such circuit, nearby (if the installer had
2wired it SANELY, the next outlet -- 4 ft away -- would be on that circuit).
Or, if REALLY done well, the microwave wouldn\'t be on the counter circuit
at all and would have its own dedicated branch circuit.
OTOH, a \"22A\" circuit wouldn\'t exist, here.
The have two version of 20A breaker, 10AIC and 22AIC. I guess I don\'t really know what they mean. It\'s plug-in microwave and fridge on the same circuit.
The \"interrupting\" current rating indicates the INSTANTANEOUS current level
at which the breaker is determined not to fail, catastrophically.
Recall, these are electroMECHANICAL devices so there are finite reaction
times involved. During those times, a breaker may have to pass the full
short-circuit rating of the panel into it\'s shorted output. A breaker
failing while doing that is A Bad Thing.
So, you select breakers with higher interrupting current levels
than those of the panel as the panel isn\'t guaranteed to \"behave\"
at levels above its rating. 22kAIC is a common panel/load center
rating.
One typically wants the fridge on a separate circuit as it won\'t be a
\"victim\" of a short circuit caused by something else. You\'d be
annoyed if the toaster blew a breaker and your food spoiled...
(if the refrigerator is the sole device, then worrying about
food spoilage while the refrigerator is the culprit is sort of
implied)
Microwaves (on counter circuits) tend to cause problems because
they are used \"on demand\"... you don\'t think twice about pressing
the START button, regardless of what other appliances you may
have on that circuit. Nuisance trips then become a problem.
Putting it on its own circuit leaves plenty of headroom and
keeps other loads from eating into its resources.
[We have 5 or 6 circuits in our small kitchen -- not counting the
oven/stove. We *never* blow breakers, even with electric wok,
toaster, frying pans, microwave, dishwasher, disposal, etc. all
operating simultaneously. Kitchens are the energy hogs in most homes
so ensuring you have an adequate supply *there* is usually prudent]
ss
You should also explore whether or not your branch circuit is GFCI
protected (common for countertops). And, if so, verify that every
connection is tight and secure -- esp if your outlets were wired
\"daisy chain\". A high-resistance connection can cause nuisance
trips (and outlets regularly see \"motion\" as plugs are inserted
and withdrawn -- esp if wired with back-stab terminals!)
There are 4 breakers and 3 empty slots in the panel. I guess they really cut corners in this apartment. I might add some more breakers, but making holes for wires is the problem.
D
Don Y
Guest
On 9/24/2023 4:08 PM, Eddy Lee wrote:
> There are 4 breakers and 3 empty slots in the panel. I guess they really cut corners in this apartment. I might add some more breakers, but making holes for wires is the problem.
The fact that it would likely get you tossed out of the apartment
might factor into your decision (as it would put the owner\'s
liability front and center should some OTHER tenant suffer harm
or loss as a result of your actions).
Note that you also need to know how the panel is *fed*
(what ampacity circuit).
And, running cable is not likely to be easy in \"old works\".
Note that you won\'t be able to claim \"the wires were there\"
as the wire will have a date code imprinted on it
every few feet (unless you happen to have some old
wire on hand that predates your occupancy).
Seems considerably easier to just change your usage patterns.
> There are 4 breakers and 3 empty slots in the panel. I guess they really cut corners in this apartment. I might add some more breakers, but making holes for wires is the problem.
The fact that it would likely get you tossed out of the apartment
might factor into your decision (as it would put the owner\'s
liability front and center should some OTHER tenant suffer harm
or loss as a result of your actions).
Note that you also need to know how the panel is *fed*
(what ampacity circuit).
And, running cable is not likely to be easy in \"old works\".
Note that you won\'t be able to claim \"the wires were there\"
as the wire will have a date code imprinted on it
every few feet (unless you happen to have some old
wire on hand that predates your occupancy).
Seems considerably easier to just change your usage patterns.
E
Eddy Lee
Guest
On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 5:43:06â¯PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
I\'ll try not to use the electric stove and microwave at the same time, although they are on separate breakers. I\'d have to unplug the fridge to use the microwave.
On 9/24/2023 4:08 PM, Eddy Lee wrote:
There are 4 breakers and 3 empty slots in the panel. I guess they really cut corners in this apartment. I might add some more breakers, but making holes for wires is the problem.
The fact that it would likely get you tossed out of the apartment
might factor into your decision (as it would put the owner\'s
liability front and center should some OTHER tenant suffer harm
or loss as a result of your actions).
Note that you also need to know how the panel is *fed*
(what ampacity circuit).
And, running cable is not likely to be easy in \"old works\".
Note that you won\'t be able to claim \"the wires were there\"
as the wire will have a date code imprinted on it
every few feet (unless you happen to have some old
wire on hand that predates your occupancy).
Seems considerably easier to just change your usage patterns.
I\'ll try not to use the electric stove and microwave at the same time, although they are on separate breakers. I\'d have to unplug the fridge to use the microwave.
F
Fred Bloggs
Guest
On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 6:24:38â¯PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote:
> The have two version of 20A breaker, 10AIC and 22AIC. I guess I don\'t really know what they mean. It\'s plug-in microwave and fridge on the same circuit.
No way will the fridge/ microwave combo trip a 20A breaker. I\'m guessing you\'re misreading \'AIC\' for AFC, arc fault circuit interrupter, and that is something that just may trip on the fridge compressor start-up surge or the microwave start-up surge. The microwave by far draws the most current. It must move the AFCI trip threshold into a new regime that makes it trip if the fridge happens to come on while it\'s running. California electric code requires all kitchen branch circuits have AFCI protection, so no getting around that.
> The have two version of 20A breaker, 10AIC and 22AIC. I guess I don\'t really know what they mean. It\'s plug-in microwave and fridge on the same circuit.
No way will the fridge/ microwave combo trip a 20A breaker. I\'m guessing you\'re misreading \'AIC\' for AFC, arc fault circuit interrupter, and that is something that just may trip on the fridge compressor start-up surge or the microwave start-up surge. The microwave by far draws the most current. It must move the AFCI trip threshold into a new regime that makes it trip if the fridge happens to come on while it\'s running. California electric code requires all kitchen branch circuits have AFCI protection, so no getting around that.
E
Eddy Lee
Guest
On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 7:50:01â¯PM UTC-7, Fred Bloggs wrote:
It\'s 22KAIC, but they usually omit the K
https://www.breakerbroker.com/ge-thef113020-used-277v-ge-thef113020-20a-277v-1p-used/
Nothing on the circuit that add up to 20A.
On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 6:24:38â¯PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote:
The have two version of 20A breaker, 10AIC and 22AIC. I guess I don\'t really know what they mean. It\'s plug-in microwave and fridge on the same circuit.
No way will the fridge/ microwave combo trip a 20A breaker. I\'m guessing you\'re misreading \'AIC\' for AFC, arc fault circuit interrupter, and that is something that just may trip on the fridge compressor start-up surge or the microwave start-up surge. The microwave by far draws the most current. It must move the AFCI trip threshold into a new regime that makes it trip if the fridge happens to come on while it\'s running. California electric code requires all kitchen branch circuits have AFCI protection, so no getting around that.
It\'s 22KAIC, but they usually omit the K
https://www.breakerbroker.com/ge-thef113020-used-277v-ge-thef113020-20a-277v-1p-used/
Nothing on the circuit that add up to 20A.
R
Ricky
Guest
On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 3:28:37â¯PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote:
> I have microwave, fridge and 10 laptops on a 20A circuit. Fine most of the time until I use the microwave. Should I try a 22 Amp Interrupting Circuit breaker? Existing one might be 10AIC.
How long is a piece of string?
--
Rick C.
- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
> I have microwave, fridge and 10 laptops on a 20A circuit. Fine most of the time until I use the microwave. Should I try a 22 Amp Interrupting Circuit breaker? Existing one might be 10AIC.
How long is a piece of string?
--
Rick C.
- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
R
Ricky
Guest
On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 5:57:48â¯PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
It goes without saying, because no one says it. A fridge is about 300W or around 3A when running. That\'s about the same as maybe 5 laptops depending on the laptop and what they are running at the time.
The only individual heavy load is the microwave which ranges from 600W to 1,400W, depending on size.
But we simply don\'t know enough. 10 laptops can use over 1,000W alone, if they are high end, running heavy programs. So, they should be ok with the fridge, but the microwave has to go on a separate circuit, or the fridge has to be turned off while the microwave is running.
--
Rick C.
+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
On 9/24/2023 2:56 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 9/24/2023 12:28 PM, Eddy Lee wrote:
I have microwave, fridge and 10 laptops on a 20A circuit. Fine most of the
time until I use the microwave. Should I try a 22 Amp Interrupting Circuit
breaker? Existing one might be 10AIC.
You\'ve not indicated where you are located.
In the US, \"20A\" and \"microwave\" would suggest a kitchen, countertop circuit.
In which case, there is a *second* such circuit, nearby (if the installer had
2wired it SANELY, the next outlet -- 4 ft away -- would be on that circuit).
Or, if REALLY done well, the microwave wouldn\'t be on the counter circuit
at all and would have its own dedicated branch circuit.
It goes without saying that the fridge should always have a dedicated
(i.e., \"single outlet\") circuit.
It goes without saying, because no one says it. A fridge is about 300W or around 3A when running. That\'s about the same as maybe 5 laptops depending on the laptop and what they are running at the time.
The only individual heavy load is the microwave which ranges from 600W to 1,400W, depending on size.
But we simply don\'t know enough. 10 laptops can use over 1,000W alone, if they are high end, running heavy programs. So, they should be ok with the fridge, but the microwave has to go on a separate circuit, or the fridge has to be turned off while the microwave is running.
--
Rick C.
+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
R
Ricky
Guest
On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 6:24:38â¯PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote:
What\'s the current draw of the fridge while running? While defrosting? They might be compatible on a 20A circuit.
--
Rick C.
-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 2:56:51â¯PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
On 9/24/2023 12:28 PM, Eddy Lee wrote:
I have microwave, fridge and 10 laptops on a 20A circuit. Fine most of the time until I use the microwave. Should I try a 22 Amp Interrupting Circuit breaker? Existing one might be 10AIC.
You\'ve not indicated where you are located.
In the US, \"20A\" and \"microwave\" would suggest a kitchen, countertop circuit.
In which case, there is a *second* such circuit, nearby (if the installer had
2wired it SANELY, the next outlet -- 4 ft away -- would be on that circuit).
Or, if REALLY done well, the microwave wouldn\'t be on the counter circuit
at all and would have its own dedicated branch circuit.
OTOH, a \"22A\" circuit wouldn\'t exist, here.
The have two version of 20A breaker, 10AIC and 22AIC. I guess I don\'t really know what they mean. It\'s plug-in microwave and fridge on the same circuit.
What\'s the current draw of the fridge while running? While defrosting? They might be compatible on a 20A circuit.
--
Rick C.
-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
D
Don Y
Guest
On 9/24/2023 6:35 PM, Eddy Lee wrote:
The Code requires dedicated circuits for these major appliances
precisely to eliminate the nuisances that arise from two or more
of them being used concurrently. When people are \"plagued\" by
nuisance trips, they look for ways to BYPASS those safety devices
(that are simply doing their jobs; the Code frowns on this sort
of behavior and tries to anticipate it).
[Ever notice how many/few receptacles are on each branch circuit?
Do you really think they expect you to plug vacuum cleaners
into ALL of them??]
Note that there is an EXPLICIT exception that *allows* a fridge
(which is classified as a major appliance and thus requires a
dedicated branch circuit) to be placed on one of the \"small
appliance\" counter circuits -- but \"best practices\" (i.e., anyone
who isn\'t pinching pennies) will always have the fridge on a
15-20A dedicated circuit (of course, an apartment application
could be rationalized as not needing to support a big fridge).
Neighbor complained to me that his fridge would \"go off\" whenever
he used his microwave oven. His home was wired with the fridge
on the small appliance (counter) circuit. The *9* amps that the
nice *Viking* fridge would draw (peak), when inconveniently timed with
the microwave\'s sudden use, would promptly take out the counter
circuit.
\"Move the microwave elsewhere or get a new DEDICATED branch circuit
installed -- like every NEW home!\"
[I\'ve heard this complaint (counter breaker tripping) so often that
my stock response is: \"Check to see if your refrigerator is on the
same branch circuit\" as it almost always is (and appliance salesmen
aren\'t keen on telling you that you need an electrician to come
out and install a new branch circuit BEFORE they can sell you that
shiny new fridge!)]
Ditto for a freezer, etc.
But, people don\'t read the Code so don\'t understand what it tries to
anticipate... (\"Gee, this only draws X << 20A so I can put it on
the counter circuit!\")
On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 5:43:06â¯PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
On 9/24/2023 4:08 PM, Eddy Lee wrote:
There are 4 breakers and 3 empty slots in the panel. I guess they really cut corners in this apartment. I might add some more breakers, but making holes for wires is the problem.
The fact that it would likely get you tossed out of the apartment
might factor into your decision (as it would put the owner\'s
liability front and center should some OTHER tenant suffer harm
or loss as a result of your actions).
Note that you also need to know how the panel is *fed*
(what ampacity circuit).
And, running cable is not likely to be easy in \"old works\".
Note that you won\'t be able to claim \"the wires were there\"
as the wire will have a date code imprinted on it
every few feet (unless you happen to have some old
wire on hand that predates your occupancy).
Seems considerably easier to just change your usage patterns.
I\'ll try not to use the electric stove and microwave at the same time, although they are on separate breakers. I\'d have to unplug the fridge to use the microwave.
The Code requires dedicated circuits for these major appliances
precisely to eliminate the nuisances that arise from two or more
of them being used concurrently. When people are \"plagued\" by
nuisance trips, they look for ways to BYPASS those safety devices
(that are simply doing their jobs; the Code frowns on this sort
of behavior and tries to anticipate it).
[Ever notice how many/few receptacles are on each branch circuit?
Do you really think they expect you to plug vacuum cleaners
into ALL of them??]
Note that there is an EXPLICIT exception that *allows* a fridge
(which is classified as a major appliance and thus requires a
dedicated branch circuit) to be placed on one of the \"small
appliance\" counter circuits -- but \"best practices\" (i.e., anyone
who isn\'t pinching pennies) will always have the fridge on a
15-20A dedicated circuit (of course, an apartment application
could be rationalized as not needing to support a big fridge).
Neighbor complained to me that his fridge would \"go off\" whenever
he used his microwave oven. His home was wired with the fridge
on the small appliance (counter) circuit. The *9* amps that the
nice *Viking* fridge would draw (peak), when inconveniently timed with
the microwave\'s sudden use, would promptly take out the counter
circuit.
\"Move the microwave elsewhere or get a new DEDICATED branch circuit
installed -- like every NEW home!\"
[I\'ve heard this complaint (counter breaker tripping) so often that
my stock response is: \"Check to see if your refrigerator is on the
same branch circuit\" as it almost always is (and appliance salesmen
aren\'t keen on telling you that you need an electrician to come
out and install a new branch circuit BEFORE they can sell you that
shiny new fridge!)]
Ditto for a freezer, etc.
But, people don\'t read the Code so don\'t understand what it tries to
anticipate... (\"Gee, this only draws X << 20A so I can put it on
the counter circuit!\")
F
Fred Bloggs
Guest
On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 11:20:37â¯PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote:
AFCI doesn\'t trip on current alone. It has some kind of analyzer circuit looking for transients on the wire characteristic of arc-over. When it detects what it thinks is a hazard, it trips, and that can happen at far less current than the current rating on its label. It also works like a conventional breaker as regards over-current.
It\'s sounding like the uwave/ fridge is a bad combination. You\'ll need to separate them. Before you go to that trouble, check to see the microwave alone doesn\'t trip the AFCI. Some appliances are problematic and will do that. A fix for that will be inconvenient.
On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 7:50:01â¯PM UTC-7, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 6:24:38â¯PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote:
The have two version of 20A breaker, 10AIC and 22AIC. I guess I don\'t really know what they mean. It\'s plug-in microwave and fridge on the same circuit.
No way will the fridge/ microwave combo trip a 20A breaker. I\'m guessing you\'re misreading \'AIC\' for AFC, arc fault circuit interrupter, and that is something that just may trip on the fridge compressor start-up surge or the microwave start-up surge. The microwave by far draws the most current. It must move the AFCI trip threshold into a new regime that makes it trip if the fridge happens to come on while it\'s running. California electric code requires all kitchen branch circuits have AFCI protection, so no getting around that.
It\'s 22KAIC, but they usually omit the K
https://www.breakerbroker.com/ge-thef113020-used-277v-ge-thef113020-20a-277v-1p-used/
Nothing on the circuit that add up to 20A.
AFCI doesn\'t trip on current alone. It has some kind of analyzer circuit looking for transients on the wire characteristic of arc-over. When it detects what it thinks is a hazard, it trips, and that can happen at far less current than the current rating on its label. It also works like a conventional breaker as regards over-current.
It\'s sounding like the uwave/ fridge is a bad combination. You\'ll need to separate them. Before you go to that trouble, check to see the microwave alone doesn\'t trip the AFCI. Some appliances are problematic and will do that. A fix for that will be inconvenient.
F
Fred Bloggs
Guest
On Monday, September 25, 2023 at 6:32:24â¯AM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
None of that advice applies to the California Electric Code (CEC). All branch circuits into the kitchen are required to have AFCI protection without exception.
On 9/24/2023 6:35 PM, Eddy Lee wrote:
On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 5:43:06â¯PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
On 9/24/2023 4:08 PM, Eddy Lee wrote:
There are 4 breakers and 3 empty slots in the panel. I guess they really cut corners in this apartment. I might add some more breakers, but making holes for wires is the problem.
The fact that it would likely get you tossed out of the apartment
might factor into your decision (as it would put the owner\'s
liability front and center should some OTHER tenant suffer harm
or loss as a result of your actions).
Note that you also need to know how the panel is *fed*
(what ampacity circuit).
And, running cable is not likely to be easy in \"old works\".
Note that you won\'t be able to claim \"the wires were there\"
as the wire will have a date code imprinted on it
every few feet (unless you happen to have some old
wire on hand that predates your occupancy).
Seems considerably easier to just change your usage patterns.
I\'ll try not to use the electric stove and microwave at the same time, although they are on separate breakers. I\'d have to unplug the fridge to use the microwave.
The Code requires dedicated circuits for these major appliances
precisely to eliminate the nuisances that arise from two or more
of them being used concurrently. When people are \"plagued\" by
nuisance trips, they look for ways to BYPASS those safety devices
(that are simply doing their jobs; the Code frowns on this sort
of behavior and tries to anticipate it).
[Ever notice how many/few receptacles are on each branch circuit?
Do you really think they expect you to plug vacuum cleaners
into ALL of them??]
Note that there is an EXPLICIT exception that *allows* a fridge
(which is classified as a major appliance and thus requires a
dedicated branch circuit) to be placed on one of the \"small
appliance\" counter circuits -- but \"best practices\" (i.e., anyone
who isn\'t pinching pennies) will always have the fridge on a
15-20A dedicated circuit (of course, an apartment application
could be rationalized as not needing to support a big fridge).
Neighbor complained to me that his fridge would \"go off\" whenever
he used his microwave oven. His home was wired with the fridge
on the small appliance (counter) circuit. The *9* amps that the
nice *Viking* fridge would draw (peak), when inconveniently timed with
the microwave\'s sudden use, would promptly take out the counter
circuit.
\"Move the microwave elsewhere or get a new DEDICATED branch circuit
installed -- like every NEW home!\"
[I\'ve heard this complaint (counter breaker tripping) so often that
my stock response is: \"Check to see if your refrigerator is on the
same branch circuit\" as it almost always is (and appliance salesmen
aren\'t keen on telling you that you need an electrician to come
out and install a new branch circuit BEFORE they can sell you that
shiny new fridge!)]
Ditto for a freezer, etc.
But, people don\'t read the Code so don\'t understand what it tries to
anticipate... (\"Gee, this only draws X << 20A so I can put it on
the counter circuit!\")
None of that advice applies to the California Electric Code (CEC). All branch circuits into the kitchen are required to have AFCI protection without exception.
E
Eddy Lee
Guest
On Monday, September 25, 2023 at 9:00:25â¯AM UTC-7, Fred Bloggs wrote:
If I unplug the fridge, or when it\'s silence, microwave is fine. Sound like I need a relay circuit to disable the fridge from the microwave. Namely, a fridge outlet on the microwave.
On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 11:20:37â¯PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote:
On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 7:50:01â¯PM UTC-7, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 6:24:38â¯PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote:
The have two version of 20A breaker, 10AIC and 22AIC. I guess I don\'t really know what they mean. It\'s plug-in microwave and fridge on the same circuit.
No way will the fridge/ microwave combo trip a 20A breaker. I\'m guessing you\'re misreading \'AIC\' for AFC, arc fault circuit interrupter, and that is something that just may trip on the fridge compressor start-up surge or the microwave start-up surge. The microwave by far draws the most current.. It must move the AFCI trip threshold into a new regime that makes it trip if the fridge happens to come on while it\'s running. California electric code requires all kitchen branch circuits have AFCI protection, so no getting around that.
It\'s 22KAIC, but they usually omit the K
https://www.breakerbroker.com/ge-thef113020-used-277v-ge-thef113020-20a-277v-1p-used/
Nothing on the circuit that add up to 20A.
AFCI doesn\'t trip on current alone. It has some kind of analyzer circuit looking for transients on the wire characteristic of arc-over. When it detects what it thinks is a hazard, it trips, and that can happen at far less current than the current rating on its label. It also works like a conventional breaker as regards over-current.
It\'s sounding like the uwave/ fridge is a bad combination. You\'ll need to separate them. Before you go to that trouble, check to see the microwave alone doesn\'t trip the AFCI. Some appliances are problematic and will do that. A fix for that will be inconvenient.
If I unplug the fridge, or when it\'s silence, microwave is fine. Sound like I need a relay circuit to disable the fridge from the microwave. Namely, a fridge outlet on the microwave.
F
Fred Bloggs
Guest
On Monday, September 25, 2023 at 12:05:38â¯PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote:
And the fridge alone never trips the AFCI? You can\'t relay the power through the microwave that way because it could potentially short cycle the relay load if it\'s in a mode other than continuous.
On Monday, September 25, 2023 at 9:00:25â¯AM UTC-7, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 11:20:37â¯PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote:
On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 7:50:01â¯PM UTC-7, Fred Bloggs wrote:
On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 6:24:38â¯PM UTC-4, Eddy Lee wrote:
The have two version of 20A breaker, 10AIC and 22AIC. I guess I don\'t really know what they mean. It\'s plug-in microwave and fridge on the same circuit.
No way will the fridge/ microwave combo trip a 20A breaker. I\'m guessing you\'re misreading \'AIC\' for AFC, arc fault circuit interrupter, and that is something that just may trip on the fridge compressor start-up surge or the microwave start-up surge. The microwave by far draws the most current. It must move the AFCI trip threshold into a new regime that makes it trip if the fridge happens to come on while it\'s running. California electric code requires all kitchen branch circuits have AFCI protection, so no getting around that.
It\'s 22KAIC, but they usually omit the K
https://www.breakerbroker.com/ge-thef113020-used-277v-ge-thef113020-20a-277v-1p-used/
Nothing on the circuit that add up to 20A.
AFCI doesn\'t trip on current alone. It has some kind of analyzer circuit looking for transients on the wire characteristic of arc-over. When it detects what it thinks is a hazard, it trips, and that can happen at far less current than the current rating on its label. It also works like a conventional breaker as regards over-current.
It\'s sounding like the uwave/ fridge is a bad combination. You\'ll need to separate them. Before you go to that trouble, check to see the microwave alone doesn\'t trip the AFCI. Some appliances are problematic and will do that. A fix for that will be inconvenient.
If I unplug the fridge, or when it\'s silence, microwave is fine. Sound like I need a relay circuit to disable the fridge from the microwave. Namely, a fridge outlet on the microwave.
And the fridge alone never trips the AFCI? You can\'t relay the power through the microwave that way because it could potentially short cycle the relay load if it\'s in a mode other than continuous.